How Authors Can Navigate Publishing Trends in 2025 with Courtney Maum | Ep. 30

Welcome to The Author’s Edge! In this episode, host Allison Lane talks bestselling author and literary advocate Courtney Maum about the art and strategy of author marketing. Known for her groundbreaking guide Before and After the Book Deal, Courtney shares insights on navigating the publishing world, building a brand without burnout, and creating visibility for your work. Whether you’re a debut author or a seasoned writer, this episode offers actionable advice to connect your words with readers and build a sustainable writing career.

What You’ll Learn:

• Why understanding the publishing process is crucial for every author.
• How to balance creativity with marketing without feeling like a sellout.
• The importance of literary citizenship and how it can boost your visibility.
• Proven ways to build an author platform that reflects your authentic self.
• Why shorter books and uplifting plots are trending in publishing today?

Resources Mentioned:

• Courtney’s Substack: Before and After the Book Deal: https://courtneymaum.substack.com/ 
• Book: Before and After the Book Deal by Courtney Maum: https://bookshop.org/a/55773/9781948226400 
• Book: Year of the Horses by Courtney Maum: https://bookshop.org/a/55773/9781953534828
• Miller Media Services for Substack Help: https://www.millermediaservices.com/
• Bookshop.org – Support independent bookstores!
• Podcast Episode: Partnering with Local Bookstores for Author Success: https://www.lanelit.com/blog/10

Timestamps:

01:11 Meet Courtney Maum
02:30 The Challenges of Modern Publishing
03:54 Marketing and Branding for Authors
12:32 Navigating Social Media and Personal Branding
17:45 The Journey of Writing and Publishing
26:56 Starting a Substack
36:52 Trends in Publishing
42:33 The Reality of Book Sales
51:23 Supporting Independent Bookstores

If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review The Author’s Edge! Your feedback helps us reach more authors who are ready to share their stories with the world. Don’t forget to share this episode with a fellow writer or aspiring author. Let’s grow our creative community together. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--q41F0fdj4

Your book launch is your chance to build your visibility and grow your audience. In the Bestseller Launch School guided program, I'll show you how to get buzz before your book hits the shelves, master pre-orders and early sales to get attention and keep sales going long after launch day. Live trainings start April 30th - June 11. Grab your seat now: https://lanelit.com/bestseller 

Rate, Review, & Follow The Author’s Edge

“So incredibly helpful!” >>> If that sounds like you, I’d be so grateful if you’d rate and review the show! Your support helps more authors build their brands, reach their audiences, and launch their books successfully.

Here’s how:

• Click here, scroll to the bottom, and tap to rate with five stars.
• Select “Write a Review” and tell me what you loved most about the episode!

And don’t forget to follow the podcast if you haven’t already. I’m sharing bonus episodes packed with insider tips, and I’d hate for you to miss out. Hit that follow button now.

LinkedIn @allisonlanelit
Facebook @allisonlanelit

🔔 Subscribe for more tips and insights on writing and publishing!
👍 Like, comment, and share this video if you found it helpful!

Transcript

1:34

If you're getting too many no's, find a way to say yes to yourself. You cannot win the argument that there's no way to get your work to people. Welcome to the Author's Edge. This is marketing for authors and people who should be. This podcast is where we dive into the art and strategy of connecting your words to the world. And today's guest is going to blow your mind. She might blow your mind from her books or her boldness or her innovative mindset or her Literary citizenship. She encourages practical advice and literary action for everyone. She might even change how you see your path in publishing. I know she did for me. Courtney Maum is the brilliant mind behind five books in five different genres, including the groundbreaking guide before and after the book deal, which I'm waving at you right now. Vanity Fair named this book one of the top 10 best books for writers. So, if you don't have it, check the show notes it'll be there. And she's the author of the Year of the Horses, a memoir, which is behind me and the today show picked it for one of mental health awareness. So that was one of the Today Show picks. And the today's show picks up one of joy of art making in a culture obsessed with turning artists into big brands. And we're going to talk about this. She runs a bestselling sub stack about publishing and you can sign up again, show notes. That's where you'll find all of her deets and her classes. Courtney's wisdom is exactly we need today. So, welcome Courtney Maum! So glad to have you. Oh, what a generous introduction. Thank you. I'm honored to be here and hello everybody who's listening. Well, you know, I'm so glad you're taking the time and allowing us to dig deep into what makes you tick because just yesterday I was on a call with someone just asking me some questions and she was saying, you know, it's just so hard. It's just so hard to figure out what do you need to know? What's next? I want someone to tell me directly. So I'm prepared because I also am living this, you know, life. And I said, Oh, I'm talking to Courtney tomorrow. And I said, do you have any questions for her? And she's like, Oh my God. I mean, now you put me on the spot. I don't know. She's so comprehensive. I love her sub stack. And I was like, okay, that's okay. Take it. We're okay. You're fine. So, she couldn't think of a question, but she did want me to say thank you to you. Well, my goodness, I mean, how lovely. She was very lovely. And also, you know.. So, she has lots of questions, but it's just too overwhelming. I mean. Well, I did put her on the spot, you know, but sometimes people don't know what exactly what their question is, but it's up to us to hear what they are saying they lack. Oh, definitely. I mean, what I meant really, when I said, Oh, I'm sure she has a lot. I mean, she is representing all of us, right? Like the writing and publishing has always been hard. It's always been hard. But now it's even harder because there's this marketing layer that is expected. People are expected to bring the knowledge of marketing and self branding to the table. And first of all, branding and marketing do not go hand in hand with art. I think they're just opposite ends of creative spectrum. And not only do a lot of people not know about like how to do it, how to do it, you know, quote unquote authentically. But there's also, there's no user manual for breaking into publishing. Now, I tried to write that, manual with before and after the book deal. We'll see. And then, with my substack, I guess I'm trying to write the manual on all the branding and professionalization without making yourself want to just give up and run into traffic because you feel like such a sellout, you know. But it's really hard and for anyone listening, just know that doesn't matter if you still haven't published or you've got seven books with an ISBN number and even maybe some of them have performed well. Like we are all overwhelmed, constantly wondering. Gosh, is this worth it? Do I need to be in all the places? Should I be nowhere? Should I go back to writing on like parchment scrolls? It's really hard. Right. We all want to go live in a cave or a cabin in the woods. All I want is a pen and a legal pad, like old school, just the yellow pad. Sure. Except that people also want money and some people want fame, you know? Right. You want to be paid for your art, but with your book, Before and After the Book Deal, well, it's such a celebrated book for writers, but when you were putting it together, it was really like a consolidation of your knowledge and care package for writers. What's one surprising truth about publishing that writers often overlook? Oh, my gosh, there are so there are so many. One thing sprung to mine because you know, that book stems more from not my knowledge, but what I didn't know. What I didn't know and found out from making mistakes or found out from gossip or what have you. And then, really that book is just super generous people in the industry giving me answers, right? It's me interviewing a lot people. But I mean, one thing that comes to mind is especially these days when a lot of people are saying, Oh, well, publishers don't do anything for authors. And to some extent that can feel true. But I was shocked, like back with my first books, you know, they were calling me to tell me, Oh my gosh, they're going to be on the new fiction table at Barnes and Nobles. And I was like, yeah, and? Right? Like, yeah, it's new fiction. What's the big deal? And it really wasn't until I started researching for before and after book deal and asking people questions that I realized that gosh, I can't even remember what it's called. Publishers have to pay to get your book on those tables. So, what they were saying to me without actually saying it, right. Just assuming that I understood the subtext was that my publisher believed in my book enough to put serious marketing dollars behind it. Right. But if no one's teaching the sub, I mean, I'm trying to teach a subtext, but you're not being taught the subtext in the MFA program. So yeah, I guess long winded answer is that I discovered how many things publishers actually were doing for authors. How many things they pay for. The marketing efforts behind the scenes whether it's hiring an amazing graphic designer or really making sure the best copy editor that money can secure. You know, they are doing more than we give them credit for, I think. And they don't have really the time to explain to us, here are things that you couldn't possibly do for yourself that we're doing. And how much time and intention and it takes. It the time. I mean, I still think that There there could be a checklist. document or PowerPoint. I mean, this is what interns are for, right? Like someone out there has the time. And in fact, putting together such an onboarding. session would save people in publishing an enormous amount of time going forward because then less like etiquette, you know, mistakes would occur. People I think would start to use the CC and BCC options on emails better. They would just understand who does what, and why. And what is possible and what's not possible. And instead what we have are these, Authors being launched who, you know, more or less know how to write, but they don't know the business of being in a publishing relationship. That's not their fault. That's the publisher's fault and the agent's fault. Not the author's fault. Again, they're not teaching it at the MFA level. They're usually not teaching it at writing workshops. I teach it at mine. But you know, I mean, it's just, I say this a lot, but it's really true. Like it doesn't matter what job you are working. I mean, even back when I worked at Starbucks in college, my onboarding for Starbucks was 10 times more professional and thorough than anything I was ever introduced to as a writer. And I was just making people coffee. Right? Like, I mean, I had three full days with some executives just sort of sitting and learning about the values of the company and the temperatures that things do. You know what I mean? Yes, I folded jeans at the Gap Outlet. And that they showed you exactly how they There were videos, for sure, But in, in our culture, publishing, writing, it's like, okay, put all the time and effort into reading, into learning how to write, into making your writing better, into finding beta readers. Then you try to find an agent, great, and then you get the agent, and most agents are not walking you through this either. They're just trying to help, you know, make the book as sellable as possible, and then they sell it, And then all the publishers want to talk about, you know, is your platform. But everyone's skipping a step that's like, Hey, do you know how many emails per week are appropriate to send? Like, do you know which person on your publishing team does what? Do you know when to use your agent, you know? Do you know to thank booksellers who run an event for you? Do you know that your publisher is probably having to pay that bookseller to have an event for you? Do you know that they had to pay to get your book at the, you know, memoir table at Barnes and Nobles? Like, just be aware of, a lot of it comes down to money, and money's such a taboo topic in art. mm hmm, I mean, we're not out here doing all this for people want to get paid. So we have to talk about the money bit. It's essential really. Otherwise we'll always feel in the dark and just so scared of taking a wrong step. Right. And we'll be you know, shocked and put on our heels when your first meeting with your publisher is the marketing meeting. And what they mean is how are you going to market? But you walk in there thinking, oh, well, they're having the marketing meeting. I'm gonna learn how they're gonna market. Nope. They're gonna say, what are your plans to market? And they expect you to know what those activities might be. Oh yeah. I remember for my, I was very lucky. My first book came out in 2014 and that was not that long ago, right? It was only a decade. But that was right before tides turned, and especially at the Big Five level, publishers were still doing quite a lot for their debut authors. They were basically showing them how to build, or helping them build platform. Whereas 2017, that was my second book, and I followed my editor. But it was a different publisher, also Big Five. And I won't forget, like, I think we had our first marketing meeting, and they were like, okay, so, what social media campaign ideas do you have, Courtney? I was like, me? Oh, I thought you were going to show me a PowerPoint of yours. Like, I don't have any, I don't want to do a social media campaign. What are you talking about? And I thought, Oh dear, I think we've entered a new era. And yeah, we're still in it, but yeah, I'm not running any social media campaigns. That's right. And it's social media is one communication channel. You also need a website that's functioning and an email service provider. And no, you cannot use your hotmail to, and just BCC people. And no, you should not only email them once a month because you don't want to bother them. That's why I now offer in my bestseller school, this is exactly what you need. Here are templates. And you can steal the language. Here are examples of your pre order campaign, which P. S. is just an order campaign. We understand that we're going to buy it today and you're going to ship it to us when you're ready. Well, when it publishes. That's how. Right. Right. When it publishes, but that's the same as, you know, sometimes our dog food shows up two weeks after we order it. We get it. That's how online retailers work. But people don't know. And then they spend, they either collapse from overwhelm, or they spend Dollars that don't need to be spent on things like, I found someone to manage my social. I'm like, that's great, but do you have any content to give them? No. I thought they would do that. No. In the five, ten years to come is Instagram or Blue Sky or whatever where you want to be spending the bulk of your time? Is that even something you enjoy? Because if it isn't like, actually, people can survive without you being on Twitter or whatever the hell, Instagram, Blue Sky. The social media is tricky. You know, I mean, a lot of people have been very energetically trying to build their platforms on TikTok. And now I'm like, well, thank goodness I didn't put too much time and effort into TikTok, because it might go down also. I mean, Substack might go down also. I try to be mindful about, okay, if this ship goes down, because right now Substack's like, a big part of my income, frankly, and career. And how I reach my people, you know, it is. But every single time I post, I think this probably can't last forever. So, am I creating waves where if the ship goes down, I'm floating on a nice little wooden board? Right, and where people who are enjoying your Substack can still find you at this point I'm mostly like doing stuff on Instagram stories because I'm a terrible photographer and my phone is crap. It's constantly covered in like arnica oil, all the photos are bad, and I don't have a lot to put up on the main feed, you know, so. The thing is, is that it, the more niche you are and the more specific you are about one topic, regardless of where this is on online, like, the faster your audience grows. Great. But then, are you pigeonholing yourself into cat content for the rest of your life and you can never write about anything else. So I, my approach to social media is Yeah, I put myself first, my enjoyment first, even my privacy, I don't want to be beholden, I don't want people getting used to me posting on Instagram three times a day. I'm very regimented about my sub stack, but Instagram, it's like, when the mood moves me, so I'm like trying to condition people. If you want to be on this journey with me, um, I'm not going to post very often, my photos are not great, but we're going to have fun together, and we're constantly going to be learning and trying new things. You know, I have a mission but I do think a lot of people out there, especially people kind of in my age range, I'm 46, so like 46 and up. If they're trying to get their first book published, they're looking around, they're asking younger people, like, what should I do? And they're like, Oh, only do taco making videos. Like just talk about, you know what I mean? Like people specialize and it works. And you get tons of followers. Then, you're making tacos for the rest of your life, and when your memoir comes out and it has nothing to do with tacos, nobody's buying it. Right? I would say everything you're saying, yes, I agree with. And if you like tacos today and you like cats tomorrow, you're a real person and you get to change, right? Taco kitty. And you get to grow and you can also post just pictures of books that you like, or, you know, a word of the day. It doesn't matter, you can be yourself. And people change. You don't have to establish yourself as a brand. I'm doing the arab bunnies because you're not a brand. You're not a brand. That being said, people who establish themselves as a brand from the get go and pick a lane and stay in it will experience faster growth, whether it's sustainable remains to be seen, but they probably will not experience life satisfaction. Right. They probably won't enjoy. Example from my writing life is like, my first two books were quite similar in tone, like they were often treated, you know, literary rom coms or like, beach reads for intellectuals, whatever. And I'm very proud of those books. I think that they were well written, but it's the tone of like my commercial fiction writing is quite exhausting for me. And I am someone who well, because you need a plot, like, it's hard. And I have a you know, I've got at this point, my God, what 27 years of copywriting experiences. So, I'm like professionally trained to write in a bunch of different voices. And that's really enjoyable to me. That's one of the reasons I've, you know, been a copywriter for so long. And so, when I was talking to my agent about what I wanted my third book to be, she was like, what is, this is like a wild departure. This sounds like an art book. It's historical fiction. You haven't done that. This is not what people are expecting. You're talking about Costa Ligre. Yeah, Costa Ligre. And I was like, well, I don't care what people expect from me. This is what I want to do. And she's like, you're going to take a huge hit financially. And like, this could be dangerous for your career. And she wasn't wrong. But I know that any art form, especially writing, is a long game, right? So, now, I think I'm finally getting to the point. So, I've been publishing books for ten years, but writing for much longer than that. I'm finally getting to the point, and honestly the Substack is a huge help here of bringing people in. Like, Yeah, you can actually read all of my backlist and find my voice in each book. And yeah, it's not gonna be the same product each time. And there's no doubt in my mind that if I had published a third and a fourth and a fifth book in the vein of what people had started to expect from me, I am having so much fun here without you in my second book touch. I would probably be a wealthy woman, right? But I would be unhappy and I think I'd hate myself cause I would have stopped challenging myself. And if I'm not challenge myself if I'm just resting on laurels that I haven't even given myself, that other people have given me because they like to read my rom com work. Well, then what's the point, honestly? Because like, you really, the writer needs to be proud of themselves. You're book, I mean, it's nice when a book performs well. Obviously, we all need money in this economy. It's amazing if your book sells well and you're able to provide for friends and family. But if you feel like a sellout, you know, then you're doing all of that from, with a pit in your stomach. And then honestly, what's the point? I guess the point's financial. But there are ways to you know, your book may not make you wealthy, but it opens doors for something else. And that's also an opportunity. You don't have to write five books. You can write one book and maybe it opens a door to an opportunity, a collaboration, you learn something, you have a career pivot because you understand something else about yourself. So, there are a lot of reasons to publish and to do it the way that you feel good about and fits with your life. Yeah. And I don't, I hope I don't want to come off at all as bashing someone like a ton of French, right? Someone that a Stephen King, someone that puts out books of a similar tonality. I mean, I envy that frankly. I think it's awesome. And as a reader, I love that. I'll just automatically get the new ton of French because it's a sure thing, right? I love that. I am incapable of that level of continuity and cohesiveness. I am not capable it. And knowing that has first of all, I think allowed me to be a more confident person. It's also allowed me long game to convince my agent that I can do this pivot between like commercial fiction and art house stuff. And that you know, our world won't collapse and my reputation won't, I won't be blacklisted. Like we can do it. She'll just, every couple of years, she's getting no money from my book deals. And once, in a while she will. And she's my third agent, but she's the agent I've done all my books with. And I have to say, like, that's major motor behind any success I've had. Or not even success, but the liberty to jump around. I sometimes call myself polyamorous in publishing. You know, like if she had forced me to use another agent when I was going to do my indie art books, maybe I wouldn't have done it because I wouldn't have wanted to lose her. You know, so it's just. I just, I feel really fortunate, but I always do want to remind people that if your first book is a psychological thriller, there's going to be a lot of pressure for your second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh book to be a psychological thriller and you'll more money if you stay in that lane. Right. The thing is you had the confidence to take unconventional paths. And while your agent had to get used to that, I think what you're known for, and what I know you for, is that you've pursued approaches and platforms that others haven't. And now we have confidence that when you start something, Oh, well, let's watch what Courtney does cause she knows how to go all in and make something work. Most recently your substack, which two years ago when we talked. And if anyone out there wants to watch that interview, it's on YouTube. It's a perennial favorite. You were just saying, Hey, I'm going to start this. And cause I think people need insider tips on publishing and craft. And that's something you had to have the confidence to try and also not to dabble in. It wasn't a dabble. You were like, I'm going to invest my time in this. And I'm going to assume that people will come. Well, I mean, I can't give myself, you're giving me a little bit too much credit because. Well, okay, I'll take back. Yeah. Leave me like 30 percent of discredit because also what was going on behind the scenes is that I had a mail chimp at the time that had gained enough followers that it was costing like 75 a month. I had to pay to host it. Oh, My agent who subscribes, and that newsletter was, I actually had like two newsletters within the newsletter and you could subscribe to one or both. Right. I remember it was. And then, one was called like Get Published, Stay Published, I don't know. And so, some of it was just musings about my life. And this was back when I thought everything had to be kind of fractured. And my agent called me. And was like, honestly, what the hell are you doing on MailChimp? Like paying for this content, you're giving away all this advice for free. She said, I want you on Substack by the end of the week. And thankfully by that point, I was old enough and tired enough that I just hired someone to help me migrate. Miller, Miller, what is their name, their non binary, at Bellflower Media cannot recommend their services more. We will put them in the show notes. And it was actually thanks to Miller. Miller was like, why don't you have a book called Before and After the Book? Do you like, why don't you name the sub stack that? Cause I was coming up, I was working so hard to reinvent the wheel. And they were like, eh, brand continuity. I was like, oh yeah, shoot. So, that's the full backstory. My agent sort of forced me to go, she gave me an ultimatum to get my butt on. She used a harsher word than that, but get my butt on to Substack by the end of the week. I hired Miller to help me migrate and not make a mess of it. Miller also helped me, come up with the word marks and the logos and all that stuff. Like, honestly, one of the best things you can do as an adult is throw money at a professional to help you look professional. And then, I did the research, right? And I did all the content planning and all that stuff. I know how to do that, right? I've worked at magazines, copywriting, all that stuff. I know the content planning, but I'm no graphic designer. Yeah, so that's the full backstory. But yeah, it wasn't launched, you know, all that, that long ago. Well, kudos to your agent for coming to you. My, most agents don't act like marketing directors and it sounds. Oh, mine does. They, right, they're your marketing. In me not falling into abject poverty, because she wants me to write books. You know, it's wonderful. It's challenging. She works me really hard. But from the get go, has coached me in business. The business of just like the long game. Keeping confidence and stamina up and then making money from other directions, not always relying on the book, you know. Well, the number one question I get that I can't answer. But I'm going to make you do it, is should I start a sub stack? Everyone wants to know. So, what advice do you have for people who are asking that? Okay. So, it's complicated, right? Nope. We want a yes or no and that's That's all. Okay. If you want one answer, I'm probably going to say no. Not now. Not right away. Let's put it this way, you should migrate to Substack. At this point in the Substack space which is incredibly, it's like a crowded rooftop bar, where people are screaming. Love it. If you are trying to get to the bar to continue the metaphor and like get a drink, there's no room at the bar. So when you arrive, you need to come with your own bar. You need to come up with your own setup. So, it was wonderful that I was able to migrate. You know, I brought over like 3000 followers or something from my MailChimp, which was a nice healthy place to start. So, if you're going to come to Substack, it's a very professionalized, branded place. This is not tiny letter, you know, it's not even, well, I guess Beehive is pretty professional. But this is not Tumblr, right? Really not. You need to come out the gate hot. So, what that means is come with some idea of a content calendar, a really dynamic name for your sub stack, a tagline. If you have a friend who has a Substack, ask them to let you in behind the scenes to see the many, many, many categories where you have to have copy and visual assets, like, ready to go. Otherwise, you just, you'll absolutely disappear. It takes a lot of pre planning and thinking things out before you go live. And the best place to do all of that stuff is on your other social medias, you know. So, I didn't really realize I was testing stuff out, but all the years that I'd been on Tumblr and Twitter and Facebook. You know, getting a sense of like, wow, I never thought people would want to see pictures of my desk, but apparently they like to see the tool. Oh, they don't like when I post this. Oh, my cat's not very popular. Oh, but they love, you know what I mean? I do love cat I mean, if anybody, I don't have a cat. And so, I routinely say, if you have cat pics or videos, please tag me love my cat. But, share them. But you want to really, product test, if you will. Your angle, your thing, and practice your storytelling elsewhere, so that when you are ready to come to Substack, you really know what you're coming there for. Because the best Substacks are incredibly specialized. So, they don't have to be super, super niche. Like, oh, I'm writing only about cucumbers. That's not going to work, right? But maybe you're a vegan who writes about fresh food and fresh perspectives. Like, you want to leave yourself enough. For instance, I've worked with a lot of clients who are writing about trauma in their memoirs. And then, they try to have their substack just be about that very specific trauma. So, let's just say, it's I don't know, you had a stillborn baby, right? Yeah, you cannot create a substack just about. You can create a Facebook group, you can do an anthology. But you can't hitch your wagon to trauma forever because of you. Not because of readers, the readers will come, but because of you. Because how are you going to write nothing but that. You know, so you need whatever the central thing is, especially for memoirs, you have to make sure that you're leaving enough space, literally, like leaving enough tags. And what are they called, the new, leaving enough pages or whatever for light content. Where are you going to show the side of you that loves to belly dance? Where are you going to show the side of you that loves erotic novels or loves that you write? And that just takes so much thinking. You can't arrive on Substack on a Wednesday like, Hey guys, new here. I'm not sure what I'm going to write about. I'll find my way. No, that's for your tiny letter. That can be your mail chimp. And also, a lot of people at this point are coming to Substack expecting to support themselves, right? With some annual salary. Like, this takes time. I do have a successful substack, but I also have five books. I've worked in marketing for 25 years. I'm a copywriter I'm really good. This is like my comfort zone. Right. You're not new. No, like I my whole career has led up to having A sub stack, I did not, you know, like Sarah Jessica Bart, you know, open my computer, like one thing I'm thinking about today, right? it is, there's strategy behind, there's a lot of passion, love and care. But this is human from decades of hard work and failings and less failings, some success, you know? So, yeah, no, don't run to Substack. Especially now, like, there's just, because of the growth of Substack, and because people are starting to, some people are making real money, the cancelers are coming for Substack. So, just yesterday, I think, at this point, we'll be a bit out in the future. But it's the week before the holidays and they just announced that they're basically gonna be like partnering with Barry Weiss so everyone's calling for beheadings and you know Subscription rates are dropping. And I mean for God's sake like unfortunately free speech is a messy animal, but Free speech, if you believe in free speech, like, then we have to believe in free speech. So, whatever, I'm just gonna hold on. I have a life preserver, if I need to use it, I'll jump off the ship. But whatever, this is my passion and I'm just like gonna keep my head down. At the very least, if you're asking, should I start a sub stack? You, Courtney, you've given people a couple of things to do. One, first of all from me, subscribe to Courtney's substack it will help you understand what levels that are possible because she provides four levels. And if you go to, this will be in the show notes, where to go so that you can take a look, but you can reverse engineer the fact that there are four levels and what you get, based on that. And then take that action yourself, you know, before you actually start. Don't get in there and sort of figure it out. You're not going to wing it. I mean, but I think even before deciding on tiered payment plans. Like you should be publishing off the book pieces and essays, Sure. Get out there and start publishing in magazines and stuff and like, make sure that you know, I mean, if you already have books and you already have publications, then maybe you are ready for a substack. And again, this is not generalized advice, this is advice for 2025. This is not advice I would've given in 2022. This is current advice for the substack now. It got crowded really fast. You're gonna be a treat that falls down and no one hears it. Right? So, if you wanna come to Substack for fun, absolutely go. But if you have any goals of you know, you're trying to sell a proposal and you really want your sub stack to count. You want to get 10, 000 followers by the spring, right? Or you want to make a certain amount of money. You want to monetize your writing. You need to be so strategic right now. Right now. Maybe this will change, but you need to be thoughtful and strategic. And there's just, Jane Friedman has wrote a wonderful piece about 'don't forget the author newsletter.' And I couldn't agree with her more. There is nothing wrong. In fact, that's what my MailChimp was, right? With like good old fashioned author letter. It comes out once a season or once a month. No more often than that. And you're just kind of sharing what you're up to with people. Here's some recipes I love. I'll be doing these events like, oh, my book's coming out on paper. Just keeping people abreast. Now, they're not going to pay for that, but they will go pay for your books. Chloe Benjamin, I'm sure she's getting a lot of pressure to go to Substack, the bestsellers, Chloe Benjamin. But she has this gorgeous author newsletter that people adore, where she mostly writes about like knitting projects and what she's reading and it's quiet and it's cozy and it's not hammering through your inbox every day. And people, Gobble it up as they gobble up her books and it's working so well. Why change it, you know? So, nothing wrong with the quarterly newsletter. That's more about keeping in touch. But yeah, it's just we are really in a culture right now where it's like, go out overnight come back in two days with a podcast Come back in two days with a web series. And none of this You It can happen overnight, it really, it's like writing a book. That panicked action, it makes your chest clamp up. I mean, it just doesn't feel good. And you strategic, but like you do need to prioritize your own joy and enjoyment, you really do. I'm sure you, just like me, have seen so many people burn out. I watch so many people my age. When book talk was like, oh, everyone has to go to book talk, right? On TikTok. I watched so many people my age with their little ring lights and the makeup that they had decided, trying so hard to make these videos. And they started getting traction. They started getting traction. And then they were like, you know what? F it. This damn ring, I can't take it anymore. Like I can't take, you know, I just want to be a slovenly writer like I was before. And I love that. I'm all for trying. It doesn't work. You stop. Right. Yeah. Try what feels good. Now, you have your finger on the pulse of the industry of publishing through your workshops and your work as an author and your coaching, and your sub stack. What are some emerging trends or shifts in the industry that people should be aware of? Well, that's a great question. I mean, I write about this specifically in a pretty recent post, something like, is your novel submission ready for 2025? That's specifically about fiction. But general trends are shorter books, like quite short, like almost maximum 70, 000 words. You'll notice like novels, even though they're hardcover, they're getting shorter and shorter, short type memoirs. I think the novella is making a comeback. People don't want to admit to that, but if you look at Open Throat by Henry Hoek, which I think was 23, 000 words and published in hardcover. I think there is a sweet spot somewhere out there for novellas. Romance y is still getting people excited as a genre. Yes, it And then if you're not doing genre, you know, and if you're going for like big five fiction, which is different than independent fiction. Yeah, you're gonna find success a little quicker if you have a plot. And an uplifting vibe because things are so dark, right? So, there is a lot of pressure to have kind of something uplifting. I think the rom com's making a big comeback. And then, you know, the quiet books, the more literate books, you might be finding better partners at the indie level or even micropress. And then, I mean, another major trend will be self publishing with no stigma. Mm hmm. My request for anyone who wants to self publish is please make sure your cover rivals anything that's in the, you know, just the cover art. Don't do it yourself on Canva. Well, I think I should probably, let me put that in context. I think that the trend will be self publishing for people who already have a platform. Uh, yes, for sure. I mean, Taylor Swift is sort of an outsized comparison, but given that royalty rates haven't changed since the dawn of time. Given how much unpaid labor is being asked of authors these days in terms of promotion, and event management, and social media management, and all that stuff. I know myself and many other colleagues are looking around like, why am I only getting like seven, ten percent of my labors? It's my book, I wrote it, you know, I'm doing like almost everything except printing the darn thing. So, why don't I just print the darn thing and keep all the profits except for what goes to the IRS, you know. That's certainly been on, yeah, I will definitely be self publishing a book in the future. I don't know what I've done it before. I self published in my twenties. And I am truly excited to do it again because I do have enough of a platform now. That like, I don't think that my, you know, truly excited followers care whether it's HarperCollins or Bake Street Muffins, LLC. They don't care, right? They don't. So, my ego died a while back. So, at this point, for a certain type of book, like, yeah, I'm very excited personally to. It's not going to be soon, but I'm absolutely going to be self publishing something. Yeah. Well, it's the business model but it's also how author's paying. You know, with a traditional book deal, the author is getting a book advanced. They're paid for their work before the work is actually published, and then if the book sells, you get, if you earn back whatever you were paid as an advance, you get the royalties, which are too low. With whereas with self publishing, the author is going to pay for everything, the copy, edit, the cover, you know, you're paying for everything. But then you're keeping the proceeds with hybrid publishing, there's a pay to play element. In theory, the editors are supposed to be more discerning about what they'll take on, like they do say no to some projects. But most hybrid publishers I'm aware of, their opening package starts at like 10, 000 and that does not include publicity or anything, that's just to get the book like formatted. Well, I like hybrid because you get quite a different profit percentage. One of my favorite, and I refer to a lot of different, you know, hybrids. But one of the hybrids I really like is gives 50 percent splits, 50, 50, 50 of the profit. But half the profit goes back into marketing the book, back into running Amazon ads. Yeah, and they handle distribution. Which is genius and they handle distribution. So, there is often people don't know until they know how difficult true self publishing is. You know, you're going out to like bake sales with a bunch of your books. It's rough out there. So, certainly hybrid publishing, even if you're feeling like, I can't believe I have to pay to get this out there. Them, handling the Amazon stuff, the distribution online, and in brick and mortars like that, that's something you would have for anyway. And yeah, listen, there's a path for everyone. And I think as you know, my big thing is that as publishing becomes even more restrictive and like elitist. If you're getting too many no's, find a way to say yes to yourself. You cannot win the argument that there's no way to get your work to people. It's nice to have the gatekeepers. I've had really positive partnerships with my publishers. But because of social media, digital media, all the tools we have at our disposal that we sometimes like to complain about, right? But they exist. And whether it's through videos on YouTube or weird posts on tiny letter, whatever, you can find your people in so many different ways. And, you know, the sad truth is that a lot of the big five books, are selling like maximum 2, 000 copies these days. So, if you sell 400, 500 copies of your self published book that you're keeping in your garage, like, you're kind of killing it. And you're probably making the same. And you're probably making the same amount. I have a kind of a reoccurring client who's become a friend, who when we first had our first consultation back in the day. She was like, You know, I don't know, I like self published this memoir during the pandemic and I only sold 5, 000 copies. I'd really like it. And I was like, I'm sorry, what? Did sold 5, 000 copies of your self published memoir during the very beginning of the pandemic? I was like, you're like a New York Times bestseller. I don't think you understand. Like, that's astonishing. Those are awesome numbers. I said, hell no, I'm not going to tell you to go get an agent and just keep doing what you're doing. You're doing great. She had no idea. She had no idea. She thought she was doing terrible. It was like awesome conversation cause at the end she just came out feeling like an absolute boss warrior. But again, because we're so cagey and nobody wants to admit how few copies or how many copies they sold or what they were paid. We're all just floating out here with assumptions about, Oh, my book only sold, people don't know what numbers. People don't know. And it's not even fair. I have a client whose first book sold 30,000 copies and she was told by her agent that it didn't do well. And that agent dropped her and we had to find her a different agent. I was like, first of all, that is poo. It was what year was it? it was before the pandemic. But it was because the publisher paid too much like that, you can't control. I mean that happens all the time with like the big, big advances, like really hefty advances, you know, upward of 350, 000 is what I'm talking. Well, they've made an investment, right? And they want a return on their investment. So, if you're getting a 700, 000 advance, and your book sells 30, 000 copies, then their ROI is not great. And so, yeah, they might drop you. Unfortunately, Big five Level, a business. And is it the author's fault? No, it's not the author's fault. But maybe the million dollar book deal and the massive publisher is not your path forward, you know. And maybe you'd be happier at a slightly smaller publisher who treats you like an absolute a queen, you know. And a team. You just have to learn the hard way that books are completely trend dependent and also wildly. Book success is wildly dependent on current affairs. My second book was supposed to be, you know, this massive bestseller. I mean, I don't know, they toured me so many times. I did pre nat, pre launch national tour, put, like, I was treated so well. And then Trump was elected and the book came out right after the election and nobody was reading fiction. Fiction sales at that point in time were down 83%. Like no one was selling anything. So, the ROI wasn't great, but at that point, I mean, I had a really good relationship with my editor, who's a grown ass adult, and I'm a grown ass adult. And we were all like, Okay, well this completely underperformed. But yeah, we didn't have on our bingo card Trump winning the election, So, whatever, your sales records are gonna, you know, way up here for the first book, and then we're taking a nosedive. But if people are clever enough to look the date, next to those sales, we move on, right? So, you know, it's like, publishers have bottom lines. They just do, that we are in a capitalist society. The important thing is to try to partner with conscious capitalists who understand that they are dealing with artists in a trends based market. And just stick with you. I think it's heartbreaking when the publishers do or agents drop someone because you know their client walked the street and nobody picked them up. That's not how you treat people. So, it takes time. It's okay to part ways with your agents. It's okay to realize you don't like your editor. It's okay to realize, I don't even think I chose the right publishing house. This is just part of the way finding, you know. But again, it doesn't happen overnight, and that book that they dropped your client for, maybe there's going to be a renaissance for that book in the future, you know. And as long as things don't go out of print, they're still available. If they go out of print, you get your rights back, you self publish it. And you try to find your way again. You know, there's just a lot of avenues at our disposal these days that didn't used to exist. Back in the eighties, your book didn't sell. What recourse did you have? Very little, very little. These days you have tons of ways to resuscitate, you know, a fire. And there's always a way. There's always a way. Whether or not you choose to put the energy into it. Like I'm just not, I'm getting too old to be out there. Hitting the pavement for all of my backlist. I do not have the time. The kindest thing I can do for my former books is to write new books and bring people. That's how I see it. But some people, you know, get really jazzed like I've quite a few peers who published fiction in 2016, 2017, or even the pandemic, right? And their book just didn't get a fair shot and they're putting enormous energy into trying to bring people back to that like Lee Stein did this, you know, awesome, social media campaign. Pretending to be kind of a boss girl from one of her books. And she saw a huge boost in sales for a backlist. Book of hers, which is Rad. I don't have that energy right now. But my goodness, if you do, more power to you. I think that's just beautiful. We'll link to Lee Stein's Insta in the show notes because I love her. I watch all of her reels too. Courtney, what's a book you love right now? The book I read most recently that I felt super jazzed about was The Bog Wife. Kate, I'm so sorry. You'll put it in the show notes. Kay Chronister. Right. Kay Chronister. And that is from Catapult. Catapult published before and after the book deal. I was seeing a lot of buzz about that book. And I was headed down to Tennessee myself and the book takes place, in the Appalachia mountains. I just thought it was freaking awesome. It's so atmospheric. It's hard to not spoil it, but basically this is a book about children who were raised in a really isolated manner, believing that they have super special powers. And as their patriarch starts to suffer from an illness, they're realizing that maybe some of what they've been told about their heritage is hogwash. It's again, so atmospheric. The landscape writing, the botany, the horticulture is gorgeous, but it's also just incredibly well told story. I hope it gets optioned because I want to see this film really bad. Oh, I love that. I love all the like gothic suspense. I recently, read something simple, like I love, this is my fun genre. So, I'm going get this book right away. Yeah, it's absolutely, Escapist. And then, I'm about to go on a trip and I'm bringing, I have this stuff in front of me, I'm bringing a Nora Lange. I don't know if it's Lange or Lange. I'm going to go with Nora Lange's We Fools or Us Fools, which is just like one of the big books of 2024 has been getting so much press and it's from Two Dollar Radio, which is so rad. Two Dollar Radio is a micro press, right? Two Dollar Radio is out there giving like 500 book advances. And this book was just nominated for the National Book Critics. It's had like seven pieces about it in the New York Times. It's like absolutely blowing up. Now, if it landed at Two Dollar Radio, which by the way, they are incredible editors. I almost worked with them on a book of mine. That's not usually the first place you go. So, my guess is that that book was rejected many, many, many, many times. And it should really, I could read in between the lines incorrectly here. Like I can't be quoted on this. It's my opinion, but it's just so inspirational. I think that how well that book has done at a micropress. It's awesome. Yeah. That's, I can't wait to get it, 'it's Us Fools." Now, before we call this podcast complete, what do you want to leave our listeners with? Something that's really important to me and I think matters is please make the effort to buy books from independent bookstores. I think it's just really essential at this time in our climate and culture that we give no more money to Jeff Bezos. Like, if you are working on having a career in publishing, you need to keep alive these brick and mortar independent bookstores or even just bookshop doors. Just buy it anywhere but Amazon. Really start making an effort. I mean, you don't have to boycott it completely. Once in a while I have to, I need a book to arrive overnight for research purposes, right? But just maybe try to live with a ratio in mind. For every one book you get on Amazon, you'll make an effort to get three. Not in the following week, but you know, over the season from an independent bookseller. Get out there, buy postcards, buy a pen, just keep them alive. I mean, it sounds like it's not publishing and writing advice, but it is. We need to support. Yeah. It's an investment in your distributor. Investing in your own career. I've seen so many people get really hurt by realizing like, oh my god, I can't believe I got a book deal. It finally happened. I've been buying books on Amazon for 20 years. I don't have any relationship with the local booksellers. And so, they just sort of walk in, right? I've like witnessed this happen. They walk in and they're like, hi, so I'm a local author. I just got my first book deal. And I'm wondering if you do events. And they're like, Oh, are you new to the area? No, I've lived here for decades. And you're like, oh, we petty like. We haven't seen you ever. You're only coming when you want something like mm-hmm, here's the door. You know? So, be savvy. Plan ahead. Start putting your money where you want your ISBN code to be. Right. The links that we'll share in the show notes for these books will be bookshop.org links. And if you don't know about bookshop.org, you can identify a local bookstore as bookstore that gets the profit of your book. So. Swift, they arrive quite quickly. Yeah, it's the same as you can order on any retailer. So, just choose one that you like. And if you're thinking, how can I partner with bookstores more? I will link to the podcast episode I did. On that, because bookstores are also don't want to host your event and have you tell people, it's okay, just bring your book. No. Effing no. You couldn't go to a dining restaurant and bring your own steak, so please don't do that. That is great advice. Thank you very much, Courtney. We will link to everything, but for sure your substack, courtneymaum.com/substack. And also, keep up the horse pics in your Instagram. I love it. I would love some video. That would be great just for me. You can tag me and I would love it. Thank you very much.