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How to Write Button Copy that Converts Book Sales with Nancy Harhut | Ep. 56

• Allison Lane • Episode 56

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Is the language on your website or email buttons quietly sabotaging your book sales? 

Allison Lane sits down with behavioral marketing expert Nancy Harhut and breaks down exactly why “Submit” doesn’t work and what to say instead. Discover how small tweaks in your button copy can drive real results, boost reader engagement, and increase conversions. If you’re building your author platform, planning a book launch, or writing your sales page, this conversation is a masterclass in persuasive language. 

Don’t guess; reverse engineer your marketing with decision science that gets results.

What You’ll Learn:

  • What words to avoid and what to use instead, in your call-to-action buttons.
  • How to write email and website copy that drives readers to buy.
  • Why one powerful word can double your conversions.

Resources Mentioned:

Timestamps:

  • [05:24] Why “Don’t” doesn’t work: What to say instead.
  • [08:15] The biggest marketing mistake new authors make.
  • [15:00] How loss aversion drives book sales.

Your book launch is your chance to build your visibility and grow your audience. In the Bestseller Launch School guided program, I'll show you how to get buzz before your book hits the shelves, master pre-orders and early sales to get attention and keep sales going long after launch day. Live trainings start April 30th - June 11. Grab your seat now: https://lanelit.com/bestseller 

 No matter how you're publishing, you need to launch your book like a pro. Join me 7-week guided program: Bestseller Launch School. Live trainings start April 30. Grab your seat NOW!  https://lanelit.com/bestseller  

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Nancy:

What we wanna do is we wanna focus on the the benefit, because that's what people are looking for. It's what am I gonna get out of this book, if I pick it up and read it? What am I gonna get out of this newsletter if I subscribe to it? So, if we focus on on that, if we explain, this what is what it's gonna deliver to you. This is how you are gonna benefit from it. That that motivates people.

Allison:

Welcome back to the Author's Edge where we are helping you be your very best marketer because somebody has to, and also you are busy doing what you do. What you're an expert in and writing your books and speaking. Nobody has time to become an expert in marketing too. That's why I'm here. Your publishing Sherpa. And I'm Allison Lane. If we haven't met, if you're an og, I appreciate you. Do me a solid, make sure that you bookmark. This, if you know me at all, you know that I've been talking about this author and this book for a year and a half since I saw her speak. Today's guest is all about getting people to take action. Nancy Hart is a global expert in blending behavioral science with marketing, helping us tap into decision making shortcuts that. Honestly we all need,'cause nobody has time to ring hands and mull things over. I love it when there's just a shortcut and I can get something, understand somebody's point and take action. Her specialty is blending that. Creative with decision science, which is a new term to me, and to prompt a response to help people get to their action faster, whatever their action tends to be. So she's spoken around the world from so by Southwest to Sydney and all the places in between. I met her in Portland, Maine as it happens. I'm excited to introduce you to Nancy. Welcome to the show. Nancy, thank you so much for being here and for taking time from your like whirlwind speaking everywhere, helping every marketer in the world be better and more succinct and clearer. I feel like when people hear marketing, they raise an eyebrow,'cause marketing gets a bad rep, but productive marketing is clear and easy'cause nobody has time to, sift through all the pretty words in order to get to. Can you give me what I want? So when we get started, let's just get started with. A definition of your expertise because when I saw you speak at the Agents of Change conference, which are mutual friend Rich Brooks runs.

Nancy:

Awesome.

Allison:

And he'll be on the podcast in a couple weeks. I filled up a notebook with all the things, and it's the only notebook portion that I kept from then. And that was a couple years ago. And since then I've been sharing your book, which is using behavioral science in marketing. And then the subtitle is Drive Customer Action and Loyalty by Prompting Instinctive Responses. And I think that is the important part is that we want to drive people to action and make it easy for them. But let's back up and if you could just explain what behavioral science is and why we should be listening to you about it.

Nancy:

Sure. That's a great question. Sometimes people hear science and like their Eyes roll roll back in their head. They're like, you

Allison:

yeah.

Nancy:

I'm an I'm an author, I'm a creative person, science expert, test these tubes and lab, and that's not me. You know? And And the truth of the matter is comparable science is just very simply. It's the study of how people behave. more And more specifically, it's the study of why we do what we do. And when you And when we think about it All of us. All of us someone that we that we want to do something. Maybe we want readers to buy our books. Maybe we want our spouse to take out the trash. Maybe we want our kids to get dressed, we maybe we want our. Audience to buy our products and services. all We all have someone we want something from. We We wanna influence somebody's behavior. And behavioral scientists have found that very very often people don't make well well thought out, well considered deliberate decisions. What we do often, not always, but often is we we cruise along on autopilot and we we just rely on these decision defaults that humans have developed over over the ages. so if. if. Marketers, right? right? If we can get out ahead of that, if we're aware of these decision defaults, we can use them to mutual advantage. We can use them to our advantage and to our audience's advantage. Because if we know that somebody is likely to say X, if we say Y, and we want them to say X, then let's make sure we say Y in our marketing materials. So it's just an easy way to Increase the the likelihood that people will pay attention to our marketing messages and that they will engage with them. And respond to them. So science sounds sounds maybe maybe daunting, but it's just very simply the study of how how people behave, why they do what they do. And my book is, and how to get them to do more of what we want them to do.

Allison:

No kidding. Now, for those of you out there thinking I don't consider myself a marketer and I wanna be direct and clear. We are talking about being direct and clear. And let me give you an example that I learned from our kids' pediatrician. Which is this, would you like green beans or broccoli to go with your chicken nuggets? I'm giving two choices. I'm not saying, do you want a vegetable because. I'm helping a toddler who's now 16 and a half and driving himself to school. I was helping him go, oh, there are two choices. I didn't give him six choices and I didn't ask an open-ended question because then he never would've gotten to the answer. When I would share, the What's for dinner? Or have to answer that. What's for dinner? Do you want green beans or broccoli with your chicken nuggets? Was what I would ask. And also, when you're teaching your child to do something you wanna use the words of what you want them to do? The whole like, don't run, don't hit your sister. What they hear is hit your sister, don't pull the dog's tail. And that's not, you wanna start with what they want so that they can actually hear it and take action on it. I always thought that was so interesting, but I think that it works still.

Nancy:

I think it's interesting and I something about about this once I and I. the behind is pull the dog's tail. We can create a mental picture of pulling a a dog's tail. We can envision a dog and its tail and our hand yanking on the on the tail. But,

Allison:

But the word don't.

Nancy:

What's What's the mental image for the word? Don't? There's There's no, It's like the international No sign. I guess there's no, yeah, it's far to envision No. Yeah. Or no, like when I say no,

Allison:

no. If I say to you, book.

Nancy:

dog, lima Beans, broccoli. Like you have a picture, right? But no don't, there's not a picture for it. So what so what happens is what we do see is everything that comes after that word. So I think the pediatrician is very smart saying, instead of saying Don't don't hit your sister, you say, be nice to your sister, treat treat your, Treat your

Allison:

treat your sister nicely. Share your toys with your sister.

Nancy:

Help

Allison:

help your sister when she falls down. Positive things that you want the child to do, but also things that they can envision themselves doing,

Nancy:

And I

Allison:

I think issue

Nancy:

with

Allison:

with don't is

Nancy:

hard hard for us to mentally create that future. And so we focus on everything that comes after the after the word.

Allison:

Yeah. Okay. So now we know what behavioral science is and based on that, I think that marketers or even if you don't consider yourself a marketer, if you work for someone else, you are always marketing your work. You are presenting your actions and accomplishments to your boss who controls how much money you make, and you are instead of asking for a raise, you are presenting what you did drove, company productivity or revenue or profit or whatever. So whatever your world is, whether you're an author and you are trying to sell your book, or you are a speaker, and you are putting together your one sheet or most often I see people wanna branch out when they reach a certain point in their career. And they're thinking of, what's gonna be my encore career? I've done X for 25 years, and now I'm gonna pivot and do this other thing. Now, they have to build a website. What's a mistake that you see people make when they have to start creating content, whether they're speaking or website language or email marketing.

Nancy:

Ah that's a great question. And there are, you know, Lots of mistakes that we all make because we're human. And then there are lots of mistakes that people make make when they first start marketing and advertising because that's, that's not what they studied. There are really good author, they're a really good chef, or or they're a really good, Accountant, but But suddenly it's I need to let people know that I need to get the word out about my business. About my accomplishment. And so I think I think one of the biggest mistakes that we make is we we talk about ourselves, right? Or we talk about our product or our service, and

Allison:

And

Nancy:

it

Allison:

it comes from a good place. We talk about our companies, our brands, or our products, our service, our book, whatever it is,

Nancy:

because we

Allison:

we think they're good.

Nancy:

or that's

Allison:

That's why we're talking about them. We go on and on, but what we need to do is we need to think about

Nancy:

Who our who our audiences and what they wanna hear, And a A lot of times they're looking for something very specific. They want An answer or a solution to their problems or an idea or some information that they're trying to access. we We need to think about things from the perspective of our of of our audience, right? I could say You you should really buy my book. My book is, really good. I spent a long time writing it. I have lots of of experience and I've put all that experience in there. What you're hearing is this this might be dated, but back in the Charlie Brown, you know, w wah whack. Yeah. People gloss over. We, are my, because we're we're more interested in ourselves than anyone else. So when I say I, I'm not talking about you, Allison. I'm talking about me, Nancy. if

Allison:

But if I say you Short of using Allison.

Nancy:

as a as a substitute for Allison, right? So you pay attention when you see the word you, when we're listening, We zero in on in on that when we're reading, we're skimming and scanning, but certain words jump out at us. me,

Allison:

our, those aren't words that jump out at us. You

Nancy:

jump jump out at us, right? Because we're more interested in ourselves than in anyone else. when when we're talking about, Whatever it is we're selling, whether we're selling our book our or our ability as a speaker, or maybe we're gonna do training or. We've created a website for whatever that we're selling. wanna We wanna think about what is it that our audience is gonna want want to find out. If I'm trying to sell myself as a speaker, I

Allison:

I gotta think about what is the conference looking for

Nancy:

and how do

Allison:

how do I position myself to fill that need?

Nancy:

instead of

Allison:

instead of just going on and on about myself,

Nancy:

I

Allison:

I need to think about,

Nancy:

gee, you've

Allison:

you've got this conference coming up and it's about

Nancy:

Marketing and it's and it's the fifth time you've run the conference, so you're you're looking for a new angle. I I can speak about behavioral science. Not a lot of people are speaking about that, as opposed to, you're you are running a conference. I speak at lots of conferences. I can speak for 30 minutes, or I can speak for 60 minutes. It's not all about me. It's about, your your audience and what it is that they're trying to accomplish. And then we kind of position ourselves as The way a way for them to accomplish what their goal is.

Allison:

Yes. When they turn it on themselves, I think that people think it's gonna be so simple to write their bio. But your bio is, your website isn't ever about you. And that means that unfortunately people aren't going to, they're actually not interested in reading all of your credentials. Which you earned and still exist. But that's not why people hire you or they buy your book or they want you to come speak. They assume that you are going to deliver the goods, and then they're delighted when they find out how credentialed you are. But very seldom do I meet someone who says, I know I wanna work with you, but tell me your background. They do not care people. They do not, and I think coming to age professionally, you think you have to point to your past accomplishments, but it's not true. Because the only person who sees that is again, your one boss who's tracking your professional development, but nobody else is doing that. And it certainly gets in the way. Now, I've heard you say that decision making shortcuts are really powerful and I saw a bunch again in your book that I have marked up so many times and written notes at the bottom to myself of this is what I'm gonna do. And even drafted my own language of, how to use, don't miss out like that kind of but filling in the blank of don't miss the chance to capitalize on the credibility you have today. Which is speaking to, from my point of view, when people say, oh, I wanna write my book, I'm gonna retire soon, and then I'm gonna write my book since I'm an expert in this space and I'm like, oh my God, once you retire, nobody cares. Don't miss out because you have credibility today. You are big poo today, but as soon as you say, I am retiring, that equals I'm out of the game. I'm no longer on the bleeding edge. Nobody wants your, 15 lessons that you've learned over 30 years. They wanna know what can they apply today. Yeah. So that's what I was really gave my, I was pouring through this and I loved it.

Nancy:

Well, I think you're, you're touching on a couple of things. Thing thing is novel. So you were saying like, look, Strike while the iron is hot. Like when you're doing doing something now people are interested in you because it's new. It's fresh and you're in the moment. And

Allison:

If you wait and you say five years ago when I was working at X, Y, Z, these are the lessons I learned. That's old news. And we're not interested in old news. The human brain is hardwired for

Nancy:

News and

Allison:

and novelty. And the reason is when we find something that we think is new,

Nancy:

it

Allison:

it activates the pleasure center or the reward center in our brand, and that releases dopamine, which among other things is a feel good chemical. So essentially

Nancy:

when we when we think we found something new, we we get this. Rush of Yeah. Chemicals that make us feel good. so so we're constantly looking for that That next rush of chemicals, right? You have that? Yeah. high, that

Allison:

that. And so we're looking for that next new thing because That's what fuels it. If you're hot right now, if you're, someone that people know, or if you've got a position that's important or You've got a perspective on a topic that's really

Nancy:

timely, like you like you said, now is the time to do it. Don't wait because. wait. It's not news anymore and people aren't gonna be as interested. And then the, the, when you were saying like miss don't miss your chance, there's something called loss of virgin, and it's the idea that are people are actually twice as motivated to avoid the pain of loss they as they are to achieve the pleasure of gain. So sometimes framing things in terms of what they're gonna miss out on Is is actually more motivating than framing things in terms of what they can gain, you know? Mm. so it's oh, if you write If you write the book now you'll get lots of readers and you'll sell more books. Alright? That's a that's a great, those are two great reasons, if but if you flip it and say, if you fail to write the book now and you

Allison:

and you hold off until later,

Nancy:

you won't get

Allison:

get as many readers, you won't sell as many books. You're gonna lose out on your audience and on the economic. Opportunity

Nancy:

That's even

Allison:

that's even more motivating because people are

Nancy:

as

Allison:

twice as motivated to avoid the pain of loss as they are to achieve the pleasure of being.

Nancy:

I say that, And when I say that, I always hasten to add that, saying I'm not saying that we walk away from benefits. I'm not saying we should be, Negative. Nancy. I'm not saying we should be negative Nancy. but, but a little well placed loss aversion can go a long, long, we Talk we still benefits, reasons you should writing the book now, But we wanna pepper in a little bit of loss aversion. Here are the reason just you writing it now and you

Allison:

You really shouldn't wait, because if you wait, you're gonna miss out on

Nancy:

your

Allison:

part of your audience and you're not gonna sell as many books,

Nancy:

and you're

Allison:

Oh alright. You have that nice balance.

Nancy:

And And that can be very motivating.

Allison:

Right. You're not gonna sell as many books or if you are starting a newsletter, a LinkedIn newsletter. I love LinkedIn and I love the LinkedIn newsletters. If you're starting that, a lot of times it's the starting, it's the getting someone to decide they're gonna write the book or decide they're gonna start their newsletter or just decide. And they've already been delaying because they don't know how to move forward. They don't know what the path is. So I think what you're saying is so applicable to experts who know that they maybe want to start a business and they don't wanna work for their corporation forever and ever, 60 hours a week. So maybe they were gonna cut back and start consulting. But they have to pull the trigger and start. It's the starting that doesn't really happen on one day. It's the delay and the procrastination that precedes the starting. And I think if we point people to that, whether it's the promise of your book, if you're writing a self-help book, if you've already postponed developing better relationships, you've missed out on having good friends surround you in tough times, now's the time that you can take the action. Especially because what it feels to not have that support. That's just an example of a way that any author can speak to their book and the promise of their book without saying, buy the book. Don't you know if these are your problems, you should buy the book.'cause nobody that, that kind of sales pitch does not feel good and it smells terrible. Sure, Sure,

Nancy:

what we want want is for someone to buy the book, but what they want is The the solution to problems. They don't wanna feel Feel lonely anymore. They wanna feel, they wanna surround themselves with good people or they wanna feel empowered, whatever it is. So we need to sell benefit, if

Allison:

if you will.

Nancy:

And I know,

Allison:

Oh, I used the four letter word sell, and I guess that's a dirty word, but

Nancy:

What we wanna do is we wanna focus on The the benefit, because that's what people are looking for. It's what am I gonna get out of this book? If I pick it up and read it? What am I gonna get out of this newsletter if I subscribe to it? so if we focus on on that, if we explain, this what is what it's gonna deliver to you. This is how you are gonna benefit from it. That That motivates people. And

Allison:

and

Nancy:

you

Allison:

once you can get somebody to say yes to you once,

Nancy:

much

Allison:

they're much more likely to say yes a second time or third time or fourth time. If they

Nancy:

your bought your book, they're much more likely to subscribe to your newsletter or vice versa. If they subscribe to a newsletter and then you announce you've got a book coming out, you're much more likely to then buy the book. You get Get that first. Yes. you're

Allison:

You're much more likely to get a second. Yes. A third yes. Fourth yes. Yes. And it's all about decision making shortcuts. They

Nancy:

made the the decision to say yes to you once. So when So when the second opportunity arises, like they like to be consistent with it. And they also know that they don't have to think it through because they already they already made the decision. So I don't have to decide, oh, Do I do I wanna say yes to this person again? It's oh yeah, I said to yes to them before. It's easy enough to say yes. Again. I don't have to vet them. I don't have to go through that whole decision making

Allison:

right.

Nancy:

So so that's like a very handy theme for us to know, get that first small. Yes. And very often it's the easiest to get the smaller. Yes, you can escalate your yeses from there. So it's a,

Allison:

Sure. Even if it's a nonverbal Yes. On a website, do you want to make more money? Do you want your kids to be set up for success? This is how we need to communicate. I even when you go to the doctor and they say, you really need to get your flu shot that's not persuasive of, a nagging reminder. It's, here are the benefits, here's how you are going to protect yourself and your family from getting awful sick, like awfully sick. And those two things together. And now that we're talking about it, I think people are gonna see it everywhere of it's not just when people are selling you a course or a book or they want you to sign up for their, to get their emails full of goodies and cat videos. It's when you go to the doctor, these people are trying to support you and they're also using decision making shortcuts, especially when click with your nurse practitioner. And then you go, yep, she's somebody I trust. I will do anything she says is how I feel about my new nurse practitioner.

Nancy:

yeah, you're very lucky.

Allison:

she said, you need to get a colonoscopy. You're like, five years too late. And I was like, fine. And she said no. Here's why. And I was like, okay. And you know what? It's booked now.

Nancy:

Good.

Allison:

It's, this is not my, favorite thing to even think about, but I believe her. And so this is what I'm gonna be doing.

Nancy:

Sure. I was gonna say that is, think think selling books is hard, selling a colonoscopy appointment, that is hard, right? I know she had two things going for her. She had your trust, right? So she built that relationship, you trusted her. You think of her as an authority, and she's believable to you. And then she also, she said you should book it and here's why, and here will sign. Just have found that when you give people a reason why They're

Allison:

they're much more likely to do what you're asking them to do.

Nancy:

instead So instead of her just saying, Allison, you need to do this Allison, you need to do this because, dah,

Allison:

it will

Nancy:

great great chance that they'll screen out anything dangerous way before it's harmful, yeah. Whatever the the reason

Allison:

reason is and you're like,

Nancy:

right. Just having that reason why, and scientists actually identify the word is what

Allison:

is what they call an automatic compliance.

Nancy:

When we

Allison:

When we see, hear it.

Nancy:

we

Allison:

We just start to

Nancy:

Agree, even before we fully process what comes next. like It's like we hear that word because, and it snaps us to attention. We're like, oh, somebody's giving us reason. And it just puts us in an agreeable mind frame. And researchers have found have found that the reason why doesn't always have to be this Ironclad

Allison:

bulletproof reason.

Nancy:

My my book and it will make you a billionaire overnight. That's an interesting reason why. If we could make that promise, we'd be selling books left and right, but it's not. True. We can't make that promise, but even if we said, buy my book, because you'll

Allison:

you'll find some helpful information in it. It's not, you're gonna become a billionaire overnight, but oh, you'll get some helpful information. But just having that reason why

Nancy:

what's what's so important. A researcher named Ellen Langer who working at,

Allison:

at in our neck of the woods in Harvard

Nancy:

University in in Cambridge, and

Allison:

and there were people lined up to photocopier

Nancy:

and

Allison:

and she sent someone to a head of the line and she said,

Nancy:

She

Allison:

she instructed them to say, excuse me, can I cut in?

Nancy:

And And 60% of the time people could cut and then

Allison:

and then she sent someone to the head of the line and she instructed them to say, excuse me, can I cut in front of you

Nancy:

because I'm in a I'm in a hurry rate and I have some copies to make, the and the 60% number goes up to 94%. And we And we think, oh, it's because they were, in a hurry rate. But Land Rover, repeat the experiment. Third time, send someone to the head of the line instruct them to

Allison:

them to say, excuse me, can I cut in front of you?'cause I have some copies to make.

Nancy:

The

Allison:

The 94% number only dropped to 93%. Still a big lift over that baseline 60.

Nancy:

And if

Allison:

And if you think about it, everybody standing in that line was standing in that line

Nancy:

because they

Allison:

they had some copies to, they

Nancy:

You don't

Allison:

don't stand in line at the photocopier to get a coffee. It doesn't work that way. But

Nancy:

Behavioral

Allison:

scientists identified that word because it's the automatic compliance. We just hear it. We're like oh. We start to say yes right away. Providing that reason why

Nancy:

it,

Allison:

it, is very important. And I think that's what your nurse practitioner did among other things. She also told you why, and

Nancy:

just makes us more likely to comply.

Allison:

And because is one word versus here's why you should listen to me. It's just more characters. It's just, literary debris. We don't need that. You can just say, because. So good decision shortcut. Let me ask you about the decision shortcut of text in a button on websites. I've noticed that these things have changed of, it used to say, sign up for my emails, which PS no one should be using that language. It is boring. And then the button would say, submit, which I don't even understand. And then it was, I don't know, click here. Here. Exactly. And then it, but it's changed. So what should we be doing now? Yeah, so

Nancy:

Yeah. So you're absolutely right. When it started, it was like submit. But But who wants to submit? And it was like, click here. That's kinda obvious. So what we should be doing is the button on our the copy, I'm sorry, the copy on our button should have a benefit. what

Allison:

So what is.

Nancy:

get when you

Allison:

You submit, or when you click here, it's I want

Nancy:

Money

Allison:

money saving tips. I wanna take my career to the next level.

Nancy:

I

Allison:

I want to gain a 50% discount, whatever it is. And if you can phrase it in terms of the first person or, I want this, or show me this or reserve my seat whatever. If you can frame it in terms of, me

Nancy:

as

Allison:

as opposed to

Nancy:

you, That's also very

Allison:

very good. So having the benefit and having it in the first person

Nancy:

Makes a

Allison:

makes a lot of sense. So why am I gonna sign up for the newsletter?'cause I'm gonna get helpful with tips. Why am I gonna buy the book? Because

Nancy:

it's

Allison:

'cause I'll learn how to surround myself with positive people. It's basically

Nancy:

focusing on on the benefit of the action that they're gonna take. So why would they take the action? It's because that's what they're gonna get.

Allison:

I'm gonna go through my website and change all the buttons. I think right now it's, sign me up. But that's not really the benefit. It's What you want them to do, the owner of the website, you want them to sign up. So you say, Hey, sign off. Click here, sign me up, download this. But But it

Nancy:

focus

Allison:

focus on

Nancy:

If

Allison:

the,

Nancy:

to your website.

Allison:

Am I

Nancy:

when I click

Allison:

Click You.

Nancy:

Weekly

Allison:

tips on

Nancy:

how to

Allison:

how to take my writing business to the next level or whatever it turns out, to be, it's

Nancy:

okay.

Allison:

okay. Yeah. Claim my seat in the course, or whatever that might be. Or join. The program actually help me here. If you are selling or offering like a program or a masterclass or a free video series, what would people put on their buttons then? So that when people take action, they turn that into the benefit.

Nancy:

Yeah, so

Allison:

So I.

Nancy:

be

Allison:

It

Nancy:

could be

Allison:

could be

Nancy:

people like

Allison:

like me. It could be if it's, if it's a video they're saying, watch the video. What's the video about? What's it gonna tell them? Discover how to make more sales if it was a video about

Nancy:

selling,

Allison:

If it's a weekly newsletter with writing tips, it's like

Nancy:

me how

Allison:

me how to be a better writer.

Nancy:

Or

Allison:

I wanna improve my writing. Or I wanna take my writing to the next level,

Nancy:

So it's

Allison:

So it's

Nancy:

instead of

Allison:

instead of saying sign up for the newsletter, it's like the button would say I wanna take my writing to the next level. And that's what I would put, because that's what the newsletter's gonna help me do.

Nancy:

it's a

Allison:

it's a newsletter about writing, for example.

Nancy:

right?

Allison:

Got it. And I'm not hearing you say like one tiny word, it's, I want to do this or discover that, it's,

Nancy:

Yeah, longer.

Allison:

It used to be like one or two words. And then it became two words. We double it.

Nancy:

You

Allison:

but now you could do, 5, 6, 7, 8 words

Nancy:

and

Allison:

And still be very effective. And in fact, you can be quite effective with that.

Nancy:

Short is

Allison:

is always nice where,

Nancy:

people

Allison:

people are

Nancy:

Their

Allison:

their attention span are shorter, or I shouldn't say they're shorter, but their attention is divided. Yeah. So crisp and clear and you. Know you were saying earlier, just, that economy With your word choice, But say what you need to say to get the foot across. You're better off taking seven words and focusing on a benefit than using two words. Click here and

Nancy:

It's

Allison:

it's nice and short and everyone can read it, but no one's motivated to do it.

Nancy:

Take,

Allison:

two or three times as many words,

Nancy:

but prompt

Allison:

them, motivate them to do what you want them to do.

Nancy:

everyone's gonna be

Allison:

gonna be better off. It reminds people of

Nancy:

why

Allison:

why they're making the decision

Nancy:

it

Allison:

and it motivates them to make the decision

Nancy:

So, you

Allison:

right. it's a win win. Oh my gosh, this is so good. So what's one big change now that you're seeing recently on how people are improving engagement in their content in general? You know, even on podcasts like this one. We didn't list all of your professional accomplishments, but you are sharing tips that are actionable. So I wanna translate that, if you would, into a change that you see people making and how they show up and get engaged.

Nancy:

Yeah, think, I think one of the. That's that's motivating people and that marketers, for lack for lack of a better term you've established the fact that you are all marketers in what way, shape, or form, whether it's, a

Allison:

as a parent, as

Nancy:

a a business professional as a friend, but we're all marketing in one way or another. But of

Allison:

one of the things that I see

Nancy:

being

Allison:

being used are very I wouldn't say very often, but when it is used, it's being used very effectively

Nancy:

the

Allison:

is the idea of information gap theory,

Nancy:

And

Allison:

and it's this notion that if there's a gap between what you know and what you wanna know,

Nancy:

you'll

Allison:

you'll take action to close the gap.

Nancy:

A

Allison:

a great way to tee up an information gap is to use the five Ws and the one H who, what, where, when, why, and how. Because if I can offer information that you're interested in but you don't have the answer to,

Nancy:

much

Allison:

much more likely to

Nancy:

tune into

Allison:

into the

Nancy:

podcast, to

Allison:

to sign up for the webinar. To enroll in the masterclass to buy the book, right? Because it's oh, I don't know,

Nancy:

What's

Allison:

what's gonna be the hottest trend in

Nancy:

in,

Allison:

In books for 2025?

Nancy:

I don't

Allison:

I don't know.

Nancy:

I'm gonna

Allison:

I'm gonna find out. Where can I get the best pizza in the North end?

Nancy:

I don't

Allison:

I wanna find out.

Nancy:

So

Allison:

so it's like teeing up those

Nancy:

of

Allison:

bits of information where I'm interested in the subject, I'm interested in writing in books, or I'm interested in pizza. But I don't know.

Nancy:

And so by,

Allison:

Teeing up this gap in the information we can prompt people to take action.

Nancy:

Who,

Allison:

who, what, where, when, why, how, which, The best, the worst, the least the most, certain Like the, the

Nancy:

The

Allison:

the most effective technique to get the bank to approver

Nancy:

loan,

Allison:

the

Nancy:

most often overlooked. Technique that will get someone to Give up give up their seat on the bus. I don't know. I don't know. You know what I mean? But it's

Allison:

Yeah, it could be anything but that makes it raises a question versus just providing three things you should do every time you get on a bus. If you're not already looking for that, but just you posing it is that's how magazines write headlines as well,

Nancy:

yeah.

Allison:

because it makes you lean in.

Nancy:

That's That's exactly right. You're standing there in the supermarket checkout line and you're looking at all those newspapers on the raft next to you and, Those little mini mini headlines, those little snippets and call outs, they're designed to attract attention because they're hoping that you'll pick it pick it up and, read it and buy it. I

Allison:

I think Robert Bly, who's A well-known marketing copywriter and also an author,

Nancy:

think he

Allison:

I think he refers to them as fascinations. But it's almost like you're fascinated by it. Yeah.

Nancy:

What is that?

Allison:

Yeah.

Nancy:

you in.

Allison:

You have to find the answer.

Nancy:

So

Allison:

But I think information gap is being used very effectively these days.

Nancy:

think the

Allison:

think the other thing that

Nancy:

we need

Allison:

we need to think about as we're

Nancy:

trying

Allison:

trying to get people to engage with

Nancy:

whatever it is

Allison:

it is we're offering our books, our newsletters, our courses.

Nancy:

Is the

Allison:

is the idea of cognitive fluency.

Nancy:

and.

Allison:

when behavioral scientists talk about cognitive fluency, what they're talking about is the fact that people prefer things that are easier to think about and easier to understand. Not only do they prefer them they have a tendency to, to believe that they're more accurate, they're more believable, they're more credible. And as a result, you can be more

Nancy:

persuasive when

Allison:

when people believe you. They're open to being persuaded

Nancy:

and they

Allison:

and they also have an easier time making decisions. About things that are

Nancy:

cognitively fluent,

Allison:

fluent, things that are easier to understand. And

Nancy:

At the

Allison:

at the end of the day, we want people to make decisions. We don't want them

Nancy:

walk

Allison:

walk away without signing up, without enrolling, without, subscribing or buying. We want them to make a decision.

Nancy:

So the idea of

Allison:

the idea of cognitive fluency really comes down to

Nancy:

making

Allison:

information accessible. So instead of using the 75 cent word, use the 25 cent word

Nancy:

of

Allison:

of taking,

Nancy:

a

Allison:

A paragraph to say something, say it in a sentence. Instead of writing at a PhD level, write at maybe a

Nancy:

grade

Allison:

grade or ninth grade level, But just make it easy to understand.

Nancy:

Where

Allison:

where I see sometimes people making a mistake is in a B2B environment where they're targeting a professional audience, a sophisticated audience,

Nancy:

highly

Allison:

a highly educated audience, and they think, ah, You know what? I have to be speaking at that level, and I have to use the right buzzwords and the jargon

Nancy:

the

Allison:

and the acronyms. I have to demonstrate that, I'm at that level.

Nancy:

And

Allison:

Research has shown that even among, PhDs, the preference is

Nancy:

easily

Allison:

for easily accessible language. Don't make me think, don't make me work too hard.

Nancy:

Paragraph upon

Allison:

upon paragraph when you can say something in a couple of sentences. Don't use a really long words when a simple short word will do. Just make it easy for people to grasp your content, to grasp the information, and

Nancy:

gonna

Allison:

gonna be much more likely to get the response you're looking for. So helpful, especially when we're experts in our fields, we want to often showcase and sometimes I come across this sometimes where someone will say people really need to do this and here's why. Or they don't need to know everything. You don't need to explain how the brain works or why your method is so effective. We just want the method. We don't. That's for you. You can keep that but we don't need to know how the ingredients were made. We just need to know. The person only needs to know enough. To take action whatever that is, how car works. I just wanna be able to drive it from point A to point B. I get the basics. You put the gasoline in, you

Nancy:

turn

Allison:

turn it on, you steer, you get right.

Nancy:

accelerator and the brake. But everything

Allison:

else, the internal combustion engine and the

Nancy:

and

Allison:

and pinion steering,

Nancy:

I don't

Allison:

I don't need to know.

Nancy:

don't I don't have to know. I dunno.

Allison:

Right.

Nancy:

You

Allison:

You know? Yeah. I mean that whole, like however many horsepower and zero to 60 in whatever seconds I don't care. Is it safe? Is it Does it work? Will it go when I press the accelerator? I'm a simple woman, just will it work?

Nancy:

It's I don't need to

Allison:

Need to know the, I just need to know that I can rely on it. Because that's what we're buying.

Nancy:

buying a

Allison:

buying a car. I need to rely on it to get, you know where I want to go. I need to know it's safe to put myself and my family in. Yeah. So again, it goes back to what we were talking about earlier. You don't have to tell'em everything,

Nancy:

You don't

Allison:

and you don't even have to tell'em all the stuff.

Nancy:

You

Allison:

you just have to focus on what it is they

Nancy:

want.

Allison:

They're looking to buy a car. They're not necessarily looking for horsepower. Maybe some people are but a lot of people aren't. They're looking for safety. Looking for reliability.

Nancy:

Maybe they're

Allison:

Sometimes safety equals, zero to 60 and fewer seconds. Because in Massachusetts and Boston where I live, and I think you are here too, but on the other side of Boston, the on and off ramps are condensed. So you have no time to go from. Five miles an hour to 70 miles an hour and your car better go, or it will feel like you're about to get run over.

Nancy:

Yeah.

Allison:

And who, if there are any highway designers out there, do better. Come on. But that to me is safety.

Nancy:

Sure.

Allison:

Yeah. I,

Nancy:

friend

Allison:

my friend Pauline,

Nancy:

occasionally she'll be

Allison:

She'll say, you know what? If anyone ever pulled me over, I would just explain that if I were going any slower, I would be rear-ended. Because it's like you sometimes you have to be able to move at the speed of traffic and

Nancy:

whether

Allison:

whether or not,

Nancy:

You

Allison:

you happen to want to be at that speed, you have to, like you said, if you don't pull on to that on-ramp quickly enough,

Nancy:

you'll get

Allison:

you'll get into an accident or you'll cause an accident.

Nancy:

You

Allison:

Yeah. So sometimes speed is safety. You're absolutely right. Yeah. Alright, Nancy. This is we're wrapping up now, but I want to make sure that you get to tell people what not to do. What is a popular tactic when it comes to marketing that's no longer working? Keep us from making mistakes, please.

Nancy:

Okay. So we've

Allison:

Okay. So we talked about the fact that we shouldn't go on and on,

Nancy:

we've

Allison:

and we talked about the fact that we shouldn't use

Nancy:

a

Allison:

a 75 cent word when a 25 cent word will do.

Nancy:

We've

Allison:

we've talked about the fact that

Nancy:

only

Allison:

focusing on benefits

Nancy:

Isn't the

Allison:

the best move because you wanna weave in a little bit of loss aversion. We've talked earlier about the fact that providing choices

Nancy:

smart. If you

Allison:

If you give people one option and say, this is what you should do,

Nancy:

they're

Allison:

they're not nearly as likely

Nancy:

to

Allison:

to make a decision

Nancy:

as

Allison:

as if you give them two options and say, which do you prefer? Here's one more piece of advice that people are gonna find, maybe a little counter. Intuitive, but they should embrace it or they should at least test it because it does work.

Nancy:

You

Allison:

tell people what you want them to do, you ask them to do it. So you've explained,

Nancy:

Here's

Allison:

here's my book.

Nancy:

You'll be

Allison:

You'll be able to gain all this, particular information from it.

Nancy:

And

Allison:

And then

Nancy:

you say,

Allison:

you say, so here's where you can buy it

Nancy:

and

Allison:

and you end with,

Nancy:

but the

Allison:

but the choice is yours

Nancy:

Allison, you would

Allison:

You would say to me, wait a minute,

Nancy:

Why would

Allison:

why would you do that? Like you just set this whole thing in motion. You've explained your product, you have your book, your newsletter, your masterclass.

Nancy:

talked

Allison:

talked about all the great things you gain in it,

Nancy:

and you've

Allison:

and you've told people how to

Nancy:

sign up

Allison:

up or enroll or buy,

Nancy:

and

Allison:

and then why would you undo it at the end and say, but you know what? It's up to you. The choice is yours.

Nancy:

But

Allison:

But research shows that

Nancy:

when you

Allison:

when you remind people that they're the ones making a decision,

Nancy:

They

Allison:

they are on average twice as likely.

Nancy:

what you're

Allison:

What you're asking them to do.

Nancy:

it

Allison:

And it goes back to this idea of autonomy bias. We all like to feel like we're making a call, we're in charge. We're not being forced.

Nancy:

And

Allison:

And so when you make your marketing presentation, your sales pitch, your persuasive argument, whatever you wanna call it, you know when you

Nancy:

that

Allison:

that out there and then you end with, but

Nancy:

know the

Allison:

the choice is yours. It's up to you, it's your call.

Nancy:

You

Allison:

You actually will be more likely to get people to make the decision you're hoping they'll make than if you just stop before that and say, so here's what I want. So very interesting tactic, but I encourage your listeners to check it out because it works. I am going to incorporate that in my website pages. Thank you for that. That's a gem. Okay, let's pivot for a second because I wanna talk about the book that you said that you can't wait to read. Can you share with us your book Reco?

Nancy:

Yes.

Allison:

Yes. So I have one that I just started and one that is teed up right behind me. Is it okay to talk about e? Sure, yes. Alright.

Nancy:

I have

Allison:

So I have just started Audacious by Mark Shafer

Nancy:

and,

Allison:

The full title is Audacious, how Humans Win

Nancy:

AI

Allison:

AI Marketing World.

Nancy:

Mark

Allison:

And Mark Shafer is awesome. He has written several books, belonging to the Brand. Is one of'em. He's a futurist,

Nancy:

he's a

Allison:

he's a speaker, he's an author.

Nancy:

community builder.

Allison:

He wrote belonging to the brand

Nancy:

he's just,

Allison:

he said,

Nancy:

his

Allison:

but his latest one, audacious

Nancy:

all

Allison:

all about

Nancy:

to

Allison:

how to stand out in today's world. So not only is there all of this competition out there,

Nancy:

artificial

Allison:

intelligence, AI is increasing it because it's making it easier for people to generate content. And there's just more and more stuff out there and everyone is being bombarded.

Nancy:

You need

Allison:

You need to stand out if you wanna sell your book or get people in your masterclass or get'em to. To

Nancy:

visit

Allison:

visit your website and you have to figure out a way to stand out.

Nancy:

mark

Allison:

Mark Schafer

Nancy:

Has

Allison:

has figured it out and he's got it in this book, and I've started reading it and it's fabulous. I can't wait to finish it. And then teed up right behind Audacious

Nancy:

is

Allison:

is Veronica Romney's Identity Marketing.

Nancy:

And I had an

Allison:

I had an opportunity to meet Veronica at a conference. We became friends. I spoke on her podcast. She's a phenomenal marketer with

Nancy:

such

Allison:

incredible experience and.

Nancy:

she has

Allison:

has just recently wrote, written this book. It's the reason I haven't read it yet. It literally just came out. It came out

Nancy:

right

Allison:

right after Marx.

Nancy:

called

Allison:

called Identity Marketing, how to Create Loyal Lifelong Fans, and a Legendary brand

Nancy:

No

Allison:

no matter what you sell or the size of your budget.

Nancy:

So this is

Allison:

is for all of us, for the people. Wow. The people with the big budgets and the big well known brands, and the people who are just starting out and who are, bootstrapping it.

Nancy:

She has all the

Allison:

the. Tactics and techniques that we need to use

Nancy:

in

Allison:

in order to create a brand for ourselves and to,

Nancy:

To,

Allison:

to stand out and to create those long-term relationships

Nancy:

are

Allison:

that are gonna

Nancy:

fuel us

Allison:

us and in service well into the future.

Nancy:

So

Allison:

So those are the two books that I'm

Nancy:

excitedly working through.

Allison:

through it. I've started Marks and I said right behind it.

Nancy:

I. Veronica's. So

Allison:

I'm Veronica.

Nancy:

set for the

Allison:

For the next

Nancy:

it takes me

Allison:

takes me a while to read only because I'm so busy. I feel like I'm a slow reader, but finding the time to actually sit down and read usually happens on an airplane, or

Nancy:

I'm

Allison:

if I'm lucky enough in the summer to be sitting on the beach. So I'm good for the next couple of months with these two, but I'm really excited to get through them because lots of great information in both. I wanna point out other one'cause in our preparation for this, I think you owe you another one. I'm so sorry. You did. You mentioned Ellen Langer has another book coming out, right?

Nancy:

Yes.

Allison:

So Ellen Langer. Ellen. Yes. I'm so sorry.

Nancy:

should have,

Allison:

should have, I

Nancy:

that's what I told you ahead of time.

Allison:

completely forgot because these two new ones just came out. So Ellen excited about these,

Nancy:

But,

Allison:

but last summer I had the opportunity to meet

Nancy:

Ellen Langer of

Allison:

of the,

Nancy:

because.

Allison:

research from Harvard University.

Nancy:

The photocopier, Because I'm in

Allison:

yeah.

Nancy:

I've got

Allison:

I've got some copies to make. It's the same Ellen Langer.

Nancy:

And,

Allison:

And

Nancy:

Quote that,

Allison:

that that research in my book and I quote it when I speak at conferences

Nancy:

and my

Allison:

my opportunity to meet her, I was like over the moon, but she was doing this really small

Nancy:

presentation

Allison:

In true message,

Nancy:

which is

Allison:

which is way at the end of cod.

Nancy:

And I

Allison:

and I just happened to notice, I.

Nancy:

my God, the Ellen Langer is gonna

Allison:

Was gonna be speaking here in

Nancy:

so

Allison:

So I quickly bought a ticket and was able to meet her, had a picture taken with her spoke with her and then picked up her new book, which is all about

Nancy:

just

Allison:

just health

Nancy:

and

Allison:

and being healthy and the mind body connection.

Nancy:

she's

Allison:

she's

Nancy:

it's

Allison:

it's almost a misnomer to talk about it as a mind body connection because it suggests that those are two things that are connected. But you said they're really

Nancy:

Part of

Allison:

part of the same hole. Huh? And so much of what? We think Impacts our health. And she was quick to add, I'm not saying that people who are sick because it's their fault. I, that is, please don't take that message from this.

Nancy:

not

Allison:

But what I am saying is

Nancy:

how we

Allison:

how we think about our health and our bodies,

Nancy:

we

Allison:

how we think about limitations versus possibilities all can impact

Nancy:

our

Allison:

our health. And

Nancy:

I was

Allison:

I was just so psyched to hear her speak, to meet her,

Nancy:

buy

Allison:

buy her book, and.

Nancy:

I

Allison:

And I am partway through that book too. I haven't finished that one either,

Nancy:

but

Allison:

but so

Nancy:

you

Allison:

thank you for reminding me about that. Is

Nancy:

actually

Allison:

she's sitting on my

Nancy:

stand.

Allison:

But down here by my computer I have these other two that just came in. So there you go. You're listening. Got a three. I know. A three, four. This is amazing. Just I'm gonna make sure that everybody has the links to these at bookshop.org in the show notes and all of your tips today. Now, where can people find you and follow your genius? I can Find me. I can tell you where they can find me. I'm not sure there's all a genius to follow that I am certain there is. But you can find me. I'm, I'm on the socials, right? So I'm on LinkedIn,

Nancy:

I'm on I'm on Facebook, I'm on Twitter, I'm on Blue blue Sky. Can

Allison:

you can also find me at my agency's website because. Co-founded an advertising marketing agency called Hbt Marketing. HBT stands for Human Behavior Triggers,

Nancy:

it's and it's hbt mktg.com. And I would and I would love to hear from any of your listeners, drop me an email or connect with me online. can You can find my book at on Amazon. You can find it@ganpage.com. You can find it at page, we can find it at Barnes and Noble. It's pretty much any, anywhere Find it. And Would, I'd and I really love it. Oh,

Allison:

Thank you so much. I really love it. I'm such a fan girl

Nancy:

And this and this is such, I praise coming from you. Okay, so Thank very much Allison.

Allison:

Thank you.

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Allison Lane

Host

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